Jaha: What do you call someone who wants America to stop killing children in his country and is so fed up he is moved to...do...something?
Venela: A really good father
Jaha: Not really defending the father here. understand his concern and not saying the son was right. no you dont get on a plane with an attempt to blow it up. was more thinking about that boy as human and not terrorist. what was going on in his head over and over while we are killing the children in africa with our economic policies?
Venela: guess i didn't get the beginning of the
question or the con-
text...been IN, se-
questred, if u will the last few days so
what's this about?
Jaha: V, I was taking another position on the young man who got on the plane Christmas day in attempt to blow it up. i was saying that a person could really be so frustrated with americas policies and how they affect the world that they do really really messed up things in response to the really really messed up things we do.
Mary: Given a different VIEW, understanding becomes present. Lots of stories of people in prison that justify their crime, given the background of circumstances. We just never know and what we do is constantly judge
Grace: a terrorist.
Venela: i've found it quite
interesting, since i
was a child,how the attention is greater
on the one that hits
last instead of the... See More
one that started the
whole thing. and then there was always one person everybody knew never
to hit;but even they
weren't stealing yo'
i also find it odd that we allow terror
ists to define terr-
orism much like we allow rapists to de-
fine rape, racists
define racism (jb says "that ain't right").-v.kali
Mark: Jaha, Specifically, what American policies are you referring to.
Msadiki: Mark ... I'm assuming that to be a rhetorical question...? Why? Because all North Americans should know, all to well, what is being done in "their"/our name(s), and to attempt a "laundry-list" of historical and current atrocities this Country has perpetrated on the world, would cause one to be both breathless and may be useless to enunciate have you heard of the "Intelligence Communities term - "Blow-back"- ?!!! Well here is a brief definition of "blow-back": [ quote ] "Blow-back is the espionage term for the violent, unintended consequences of a covert operation that are suffered by the civil population of the aggressor government. To the civilians suffering it, the blow-back typically manifests itself as “random” acts of political violence without a discernible, direct cause; because the public—in whose name the intelligence agency acted—are ignorant of the effected secret attacks that provoked revenge (counter-attack) against them. Specifically, blow-back denotes the resultant, violent consequences — reported as news fact, by domestic and international mass communications media, when the actor intelligence agency hides its responsibility via media manipulation. Generally, blow-back loosely denotes every consequence of every aspect of a secret attack operation, thus, it is synonymous with consequence—the attacked victims’ revenge against the civil populace of the aggressor country, because the responsible politico-military leaders are invulnerable" [ end quote ] Again, this response springs forth from the notion that each of us should know all to well what is being done in our name ~ African proverb says : " If you know the beginning well, the end won't trouble you " !!!! If, you really want a laundry-list, I can provide one, but, ultimately you did ask Sista' Jaha the question... ~
Aimee: Chicken or the egg? This is circular thinking... An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth- pretty soon we'll all be blind and toothless. We are "killing African children" with our policies, while the politicians in Africa are taking millions of dollars of American aid so they can have gold toilets and letting their people die in the streets ... See Morelike dogs. Why is it better to attack the Americans than to confront their own corrupt governments? What about Martin Luther King Jr's speech "Even if they kill our children. Yet we will love them." Or Ghandi's peaceful demonstrations? Ghandi freed an ENORMOUS country from Colonial oppression, by peaceful means. All that said... if someone hurts my children they are going DOWN.
Mark: Msadiki, while I admire passion on a subject, you come across as arrogant. Specifically, what is this laundry list you speak of that justifies terrorism. Put-up or shut-up.
Msadiki: ~ ... I beg your pardon ...circular thinking?!! ...nah ...I don't think so... now however, if you want to deal in trivialities, then I assume you'll also feel comfortable using that as your reductive analysis/argument. However, if you take one additional step, and read the book by Walter Rodney : How Europe Underdeveloped Africa" , it would be ... See Moreclear there is no such thing operating here as a so-called "Circular" argument !!! His thesis is that Europe historically ( and currently ) needed resources to "aid" in it's expansion, and to facilitate it's internal dogma; the notion and practice of "Manifest Destiny". That because of color ( Genes ) and Religion ( i.e., Christianity In the form primarily Roman Catholicism ), that it Europe and Caucasian Peoples had a right to essentially rape and plunder the peoples and resources of all who didn't either look or believe like them. Unfortunately, with decades and decades of this practices being perpetrated on the World, some peoples have developed thepractice of mimicking the behavior, or, rising-up agaiinst it...so, by definition, when injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty...there's no circular thinking her, truth be told, it's more like Justice...and the only thing that replaces injustice is the appropriate practice of compensational justice!!!
Jaha: Mark, "arrogant?" it is arrogant of you to come here with put-up or shut-up. it is odd though that you would ask for put up after he put it down.
Msadiki: ~ Really, I don't need to answer or offer a "laundry list , because, from this point on you'll only reductively announce my so-called list as a further example of "arrogance" !!! However, if you look closely at the statement that Jaha made ( her post ) you'll notice that she clearly says; "what do you call someone who wants America to stop killing... See More Children in his Country", that was the essence of her question...so when you ask: " Jaha, Specifically, what American policies are you referring to." ... there's your answer, it's been staring you in the face all this time !!!! ~ Oh, and by-the-way, I never said or suggested the notion or hinted at justifying ( your word ) terrorism !!!! I think it would behoove you to re-read my statement . It's only a suggestion, however, if in the final analysis, you do still come to that conclusion, that's on you , you will be utterly responsible for that misuse of energy!!!
Mark: Yes arrogant, assuming everyone has his world view. Put it down, be real, what facts. And yes, put-up or shut-up, a common saying, anytime I hear someone say "everyone knows" it is by someone who cannot back-up their comments.
Once again I state my question: What SPECIFICALLY has the U.S. done to deserve the terrorism.
Msadiki: unfortuanately, you are the one, hung-stuck on this word terrorism ...some called it simplly Justice
Also, you can believe anything you wish, however, never, I'll repeat, never , underestimate a man ( person ), Because, my truth, doesn't need to be validated by, your ignorance!!! And, lastly, it's rarely documents, or for that matter evidence that brings people together, it's how you make them feel , and , evidence suggest that YOU wouldn't ... See Morebenefit from my truth...and, -so-it-is... I can live with that.... but what does our miscommunication ultimately do to a planet that is in need of healing through knowing ??? I leave you in peace!! ~
Therman: In yesterday's speech about the intelligence failures that led to the Christmas day attempt to blow up the airplane over Detroit, President Obama ended with these words:
"Here at home, we will strengthen our defenses, but we will not succumb to a siege mentality that sacrifices the open society and liberties and values that we cherish as Americans, because great and proud nations don't hunker down and hide behind walls of suspicion and mistrust. That is exactly what our adversaries want...we will never hand them that victory. We will define the character of our country, not some band of small men intent on killing innocent men, women, and children.
"And in this cause, every one of us--every American, every elected official--can do our part. Instead of giving into cynicism and division, let's move forward with the confidence and optimism and unity that defines us as a people. For now is not a time for partisanship, it's time for citizenship--a time to come together and work together with the seriousness of purpose that our national security demands.
"That's what it means to be strong in the face of violent extremism. That's how we will prevail in this fight. And that's how we will protect our country and pass it--safer and stronger--to the next generation"
So, what is our individual part in this cause? Our part as individuals is to actively exercise our citzenship. To me, that means, first, educating ourselves on the doings of our country in the world, so that we may contribute informed opinions about the reasons that our country is the target of attacks.
With informed opinions, we could end the "siege mentality" and stop hiding "behind walls of suspicion and mistrust." We could stop "giving in to cnicism and division."
So, in that light, I offer the following refences that provide a laundry list of policies that the American government has pursued, just since the end of World War II, that reasonably could generate antagonistic responses from the recipients of those policies. This list is by no means exhaustive.
Noam Chomsky, Imperial Ambition: Conversations on the Post-9/11 World. Also his book, Hegemony or Survival
William Rivers Pitt, The Greatest Sedition Is Silence
Michael T. Klare, Resource Wars: The New Landscape of Global Conflict
Gabriel Kolko, Century of War: Politics, Conflicts and Society Since 1914
Chris Hedges, Empire of Illusion
Any one of these books, and an untold number of others, provide detailed listings of the American government's antagonistic policies toward other countries in the world.